"Ratchet Rifled" Vs "5C" Vs "Octagon rifling"?

F

FISHER

Guest
Hi All,

Could someone tell this "NewBee" the differences, advantages, dis-advantages and reasons for these "new" styles of rifling?

Thanks, Fisher
 
i have a 4 groove rachet shilens barrel, a 5c ordered and a lilja bill calfee tight bore barrel ordered myself. the shilens has no choke point in it, but it seems to just keep getting tighter as you push a slug through it. it is setting at my smiths right now not doing anything but drawing dust. i had a 6 groove hart put on my rifle last fall.

i always wondered if the lower the amount of grooves the less the bullet had to dig into the wind with or to be pushed with.
 
gonzo said:
i have a 4 groove rachet shilens barrel, a 5c ordered and a lilja bill calfee tight bore barrel ordered myself. the shilens has no choke point in it, but it seems to just keep getting tighter as you push a slug through it. it is setting at my smiths right now not doing anything but drawing dust. i had a 6 groove hart put on my rifle last fall.

i always wondered if the lower the amount of grooves the less the bullet had to dig into the wind with or to be pushed with.
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oh no buddy the last time you and jim beam had a chat you gave that shilen to me OR JIM DID one or the other ! LOL
 
don't take a rifle to jackie or that shilens barrel does go on it!!! i'll pay for the chambering and him putting it on!! you gotta get your own tuner!!!! i haven't foregoten about you george!!! i always remeber my friends!!!the shilens is yours for sure. the other barrels i have ordered are mine!!!! all mine and nobody else's!!!!
 
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If I'm understanding octagon rifling from a discussion a while back several gun manufactures have used a similar rifling. Going to be interesting but if it was that much better than other designs why wouldn't it have caught on before now as mentioned before its not revolutionary. or is it? Is it more expensive to produce?
 
It costs the same at least from Shilen. It's not new; they've pretty much said that. But we have a lot of things that didn't work all that well several years ago that work well now due to improving technology.
 
you aren't martining things with college kids who are havingthe wrong info gave to them are you??? if you are i'm greatly disappointed in you!!!

to be honest i don't give care what a barrel is doing as long as i get results!! martin has done nothing but use bill calfees ideal on tuning to get rifles tuned. The fact is everybody now knows that martin is using bills methods. he simply places his name before the man who came up with it. nothing more and nothing less.

i have used everything bill has said from using different speeds to using the water method. right now my rifle will wait for me. i didn't learn it from marty. i learned it form bill calfee.

to be honest i would gladdly pay him what he asked for a spec rifle. the fact is i'm a no name shooter who nobody cares about. maybe if i can make a name for myself he would biuld me a spec rifle for $$$$$$$$$$$$$.

till them i will listen to him because he is the only biulder thinking and talking to us. the rest don't talk. they think, but simply don't talk.
 
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Thanks.

Gentlemen,

Thanks very much for your enlightened responses. :confused:

Mr. Calfee, thanks for your reply, l'll be looking forward to your test results. I also look forward to heariing fron anyone else who can help me understand what this "new" rifleing is supposed to acomplish.

Remember this old saying boys (see below)...

F.
 
Mr. Calfee,

No need to apologize. I now have a much better understanding of what the reasons are for this type of rifling.

Thanks, F.
 
New Barrels

Bill are the two lilgia barrels a ratch type shape or something else and when are the 4c broughtons going to be available and i have herd there was going to be a Benchmark Ratchet do you know anything about them?
 
Mr. Calfee

Bill:

Thanks for sharing barrel information with us. Helps with why some barrels are more wind sensitive than others.

Marvin
 
Lower MI

I hope I am following what you are saying Mr. Calfee about lowering the MI, forgive me if I'm not. My question is do you think that a 2-groove barrel would be enough to decrease this even more, with the proper sizing to the lands and diameter as you say and still be enough there to stabalize the bullet properly? I realize this to would require testing as you are doing and only wondering what your first thoughts would be. Also could anyone explain the Octagon barrel to me? Heard some guys were shooting these at the PSL match, but didn't know who to ask about them.
Thanks from a rookie,
Tony
 
Bill,
Just to go the extra mile, if you need 4 lands to carry the reamer pilot, could you not chamber the rifle with 4 lands and then after chambering, remove 2 of them? Sometimes it is very convenient to not be a machinist, much less a barrel maker :)

My other question is why do you think that an MI barrel would have better wind-bucking ability? That doesn't jump out at me. I can see that the bullet would be very less slightly deformed but I'm not sure how that translates into less wind drift.

Brent
 
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Somewhere I read, possible a musing of some, sort of the wind/air catching on the impressions left in the bullet after traveling down the tube. Maybe like a tire in snow, brand new with sharp edges turns well as it bites in, old tire smooth on out side edges tends to slide rather than bite in. I think there is a rifling pattern along these lines of thought, rounded lands and grooves, and then add the trailing edge fade into the next groove/land. A wave form on an oscilloscope looking at a fast rise of the charge / slow bleed off a capacitor circuit cycle would be another example.
 
On a side note, Shilen is having their annual Swap Meet on March 20th. They have free booth space for anyone that wants to set up, they have food, and they have factory tours. It is very interesting watching the process of making a barrel. Wade Hull, Ed Shilen, and the rest of the gang are very friendly and will answer as many questions as you have. Ed Shilen has forgotten more about barrels than I will ever know, and we need to learn as much from this fine gentlemen as we can. We had a great time 2 years ago with Ed at the Swap Meet. They have a video bore scope and Ed showed how he inspected barrels and what he looked for. He also demonstrated the air gauge and how he uses it. They will take you through the entire process of making a barrel.
That same weekend Danny Keeney will have 2 or 3 indoor ARA matches, so come down to Ennis, Tx for some shooting and tour Shilen Rifles. It is a great time.
 
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Bill Calfee said:
Friend Fisher:

Before someone asks, the new Lilja I'm testing is a 6 groove.....as matter of fact I'm getting ready to test again in a few minutes....

Anyway, the new 6 groove Lilja, the best I can calculate, has the lease MI, with the possible exception of the Shilen Octagon, of any barrel I've ever tested, and it turns the bullet perfectly, one of the least wind sensitive barrels I've ever worked with.

Dan Lilja has already advised me he would produce me a 4 groove using the same bore and groove diameters and rifling land width and depth.....this new MI 4-groove Lilja will without question be the least MI barrel probably ever produced..

Now, at some point we will get to where we will not be able to properly turn the bullet, the MI will be so low....will the new 4-groove Lilja be at that point...don't know yet of course...

Fisher, man, what an awesome time to be involved in rimfire accuracy and I'm so excited that Wallace has went to the trouble to set up this place for us to discuss things...

Your friend, Bill Calfee
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Mr Calfee how do you caculate the MI? is there a formula you use? This is a new subject to me.
 
Bill Calfee said:
The Shilen Octagon uses 8 very shallow grooves, without the normal square top of what would be the "land" portion of the rifling...this killer barrel is extremely low in MI.....at the moment, it is probably the lowest MI barrel made.....

Your friend, Bill Calfee
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This would make a person wonder why we haven't seen any attempt at a match grade 12 or 16 groove MicroGroove barrel. Marlin uses them and they have always had a good reputation as an accurate plinker. The one I had, while not competitively accurate, was not very wind sensitive.
 
How is any barrel "not very wind sensitive"? I have seen this statement many times on the rimfire forums and I have to wonder about where it comes from and what the logic is behind it.

I will state categorically, that bullets are really really stupid and the moment they emerge from the barrel, they forget what barrel they came from. So, how could one barrel be significantly more or less wind sensitive than another?

Brent
 
BrentD said:
How is any barrel "not very wind sensitive"? I have seen this statement many times on the rimfire forums and I have to wonder about where it comes from and what the logic is behind it.

I will state categorically, that bullets are really really stupid and the moment they emerge from the barrel, they forget what barrel they came from. So, how could one barrel be significantly more or less wind sensitive than another?

Brent
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Well bullets will forget which barrel they came from, but they won't forget how they were launched. Wind affects bullets most closest to the muzzle - particularly if the bullet has ANY exit yaw, or wobble. Particular barrels tend to minimize that wobble so the wind affects those bullets less.

Ive had that old Glenfield throw fliers upwind-with no hold off, while shooting right next to people that were holding off 1/4 to 1/2" into the wind and still being blown out of the 10 ring. It would shoot through the conditions better than a lot of the benchrest guns - it just wasn't as consistent.
 
Vibe said:
Well bullets will forget which barrel they came from, but they won't forget how they were launched. Wind affects bullets most closest to the muzzle - particularly if the bullet has ANY exit yaw, or wobble. Particular barrels tend to minimize that wobble so the wind affects those bullets less.

Ive had that old Glenfield throw fliers upwind-with no hold off, while shooting right next to people that were holding off 1/4 to 1/2" into the wind and still being blown out of the 10 ring. It would shoot through the conditions better than a lot of the benchrest guns - it just wasn't as consistent.
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With a perfect bbl does a bullet leave with yaw or does the yaw start at bbl exit?
 
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