Statement about Bill Calfee's new Barrel

[wsmall]

First of all, I don't shoot IR 50/50 so this sporter barrel is of no consequence to me, although it may be interesting. Secondly, Bill Calfee cannot force this barrel upon the game. The rules will either accept it or deny it.

With that in mind, please feel free to attack the concept all you wish. I don't care and I doubt that Bill does. However, do not make snide comments about "personality" or perceived alliance. It will be edited or deleted. I assure you that should Bill Calfee use a negative attack upon any of you, it will be treated the same. However, if you do not have the maturity to simply attack the concept and not the person, refrain from posting.

[wsmall]

No, you can do all those things, but I'm kinda like Judge Judy, don't sugar coat it later. That's not what you did and you're well aware of it. I would give you my opinion of you, but then I would just have to delete it.

[IndianaJames]

I already deleted mine. Maybe it's just an early winter in the northeast.

Jim Pherson

[tim]

Ultimately, while forum prognostication may or may not actually represent anything it still remains that there is a procedure involved. Someone is free to shoot in a match with a new barrel which may be protested before or after the match, reviewed and voted by the refs and likely upgraded to Bill for any consideration of rules evolution or not. If we're headed in this direction I can only suggest in the period ahead that our match refs hopefully utilize objective rule interpretation, never personal agenda, and veiw this issue with the fairness that the organization truly deserves.

[IndianaJames]

...very well stated.

[Tennessee Stud]

I'll second that.
Jim]

[404tbang]

Friend 404Tbang:

(Friend Redux, a quote from you, although I won't hold you to it:
"What if I could kiss my own butt. Well, I'll tell you what if. If Bill Calfee can build an non-attached adjustable tuner, I would do it.")

Friend 404Tbang, Can I produce an adjustable sporter muzzle device, which is made just as the rules state? Yes....

I'm going to give you a hint: Remember those old time Kentucky Hillbillys that whittled.....they could whittle anything.....remember they would take a piece of hickory, whittle out a little cage, two solid ends then four rails connecting the solid ends, then they would have a little round ball whittled inside the cage? The whole thing was made from one piece of wood........is the old mind starting to spin a little now?

Can I produce an adjustable sporter muzzle device, within the rules, oh yes.

Your friend, Bill Calfee

Bill Calfee
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Experienced Member Join Date:Feb 2010
Location:Borden
Posts:582 Friend Tony K Harper
Originally Posted by Tony K Harper
The answer may be in the "once correctly set" part.

It probably takes a lot of work to back bore the sporter barrel lumps to get the tuning correct.

Just a guess.



Friend Tony K Harper:

I read friend Vibe's question and was about to respond when your post popped up...

Word for word, you said it perfect.

Your friend, Bill Calfee



The pictures I posted on the first "What if" thread are of the proto....and the weights etc. I used.....

I do not have the tooling to make my barrel.......

I've been talking with a friend who specializes in EDM......the only way my adjustable sporter muzzle device can work will have to be done with wire EDM......that's the hard news....I have no option..

But there was some good news....the gentleman says he can hold the tolerances 10 times closer than I invisioned.......

Your friend, Bill Calfee[/QUOTE]




Howdy,
Bill Calfee posted some pics of his idea, still in the developmental stage, in the "What if" thread. Note in particular the "whittling" reference posted on the same thread. Please look at what Tony K. Harper said in response to Vibe on another thread. And now consider what Bill Calfee said to Tony.

Bill Calfee said that his idea requires the use of a wire EDM machine, that he does not have.

If I am reading this correctly, and perhaps I am missing something, this could get down to semantics.

The barrel is going to be made of one piece of metal. It has already been "whittled" on by the maker, in order to produce it. It will be "whittled" on by the gunsmith who "whittles" the chamber, crown and any other work that a gunsmith must do.

A wire EDM machine will be used to "whittle" some more on it.

The wire EDM "whittling" IS the adjustability in the adjustable muzzle device.

There is nothing that the end user will be able to personally "adjust" on the adjustable muzzle device. It will be "adjusted" when the end user recieves it.

In that context, it does not seem like it will break the rules. And it might advance accuracy.

But we ought not try to kill the idea, before we get to see it.

And the quotation marks are not intended in any negative way! It would be "cool" to have a wire EDM machine, and the knowledge to use it, to "whittle" with!!

Greg Flannery

[Bill Wynne]

First of all, I don't shoot IR 50/50 so this sporter barrel is of no consequence to me, although it may be interesting. Secondly, Bill Calfee cannot force this barrel upon the game. The rules will either accept it or deny it.

With that in mind, please feel free to attack the concept all you wish. I don't care and I doubt that Bill does. However, do not make snide comments about "personality" or perceived alliance. It will be edited or deleted. I assure you that should Bill Calfee use a negative attack upon any of you, it will be treated the same. However, if you do not have the maturity to simply attack the concept and not the person, refrain from posting.

I applaud you Wallis. You interception is timely and proper.

The trick for all of us when we disagree is to not be disagreeable.

Concho Bill

[FredB]

By what I understood was for the use of the EDM machine was to cut threads inside the end of the barrel in the counterbored region.

[404tbang]

By what I understood was for the use of the EDM machine was to cut threads inside the end of the barrel in the counterbored region.

Bill Calfee
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Experienced Member Join Date:Feb 2010
Location:Borden
Posts:583 Friend FredB
Originally Posted by FredB stock
I have a question. If I have a piece of 1" round stock and I cut it in half do I have two pieces of round or still just one piece?
Friend FredB:

I'll try an answer.

To get my adjustable muzzle device sporter barrel into two pieces, you'd have to use a hacksaw, just like you would with a piece of round bar stock, 1 inch in diameter.

There is nothing you can remove, there are no threads, there are no set screws, there are no press fit or glued parts, there is absolutely nothing added on.

The only way one could get two pieces from my barrel would be with a hacksaw or welding torch...

My barrel is made from one piece of metal, exactly like is required by the rules.

Very good question, thanks.

Your friend, Bill Calfee



Howdy FredB,
The post I copied and pasted above came from post #29, in answer to post #28, from the first "What If" thread. Based on what Bill said there, he won't be having any threads cut inside the end of the barrel in the counterbored region.

I may not have completely understood what he was doing, when I posted earlier. As I said earlier, perhaps I missed something. I am just putting what was posted earlier, together. I hope I did not represent anything incorrectly.

Greg Flannery

[Vibe]

By what I understood was for the use of the EDM machine was to cut threads inside the end of the barrel in the counterbored region.

A wire EDM would not be a good choice for that type of machining (they don't cut threads very well), Plunge EDM possibly. But conventional boring and tapping could be used for that, and Bill has said that his conventional tool will not do what he has in mind. Which pretty much ruled out the thread cutting angle.

[wsmall]

Have I been banned again for daring to question BCs actions and motives?

No, you weren't banned. Only temporarily moderated. As I said, you may attack the concept all you wish. It really seems to bother you, but ultimately it is not Bill Calfee's decision as to whether it is legal or not. Whether it bothers you or not is of little or no consequence to me. However, you seem incapable of making an intelligent post without making a snide comment. Reference to "drama", reference to "accomplice". But the thing that really bothers me is your repeated use of the phrase "poor slob of a match director", which indicates a disrespect for match directors and also indicates that, in your opinion, they do not have the mental capability to make the correct decision. That phrase is an insult to all match directors. However, I did not make the rules and cannot interpret them.

In your opinion, Bill Calfee is going about this the wrong way, which the strategy he is using is known as a test case. It's not the wrong or right way, it is simply a method. As Tim pointed out, there is a process and it will work itself out. I stated that if I was an MD, I would most likely rule it illegal. That was when I knew the same thing you knew about it, which is basically nothing. However, after seeing the prototype today and having it explained to me in depth, I think under current rules it will be difficult to rule it illegal.

I'm going to take you off the moderation list. Attack the concept all you wish. Leave the snide comments about individuals and groups as a whole to yourself.

[wsmall]

I still don't like the use of the word drama, but the context is better so I'll let it slide. Now, you have stated your opinion and somebody may have a problem with it or they may not. It makes no difference to me because this time you did it, and I'll use this correctly, almost properly. And if someone takes issue with your opinion, you are welcome to argue it. I understand what you're saying, and don't see anything wrong with your suggestion. As a matter of fact it may be the best way to go. However, there is nothing wrong with using a test case. You just have to depend on the match director. I don't think most of them will feel thrown in the middle and may actually feel honored, and I suspect that almost all will make a good decision whatever it may be.

[Tony K Harper]

Going back to the BR 50 days I recall a match at Blackcreek, Va. In those days we shot 50 targets in 30 minutes and the rules gave points for being under weight for the weight class. (I must have been too busy trying to get my rifle to shoot than worrying about the weight).

That day I shot a 4000, not a bad score considering the conditions. But some clown (just kidding) shot a 3900 with a Calfee XP 100 pistol and won the match. I wasn't happy to say the least. I had never even heard of a Calfee XP 100 pistol, didn't really know a lessor score could win the match. But his pistol was legal. Nothing in the rules, at the time, disallowed them.

Those pistols motivated me and many others to look at ways of reducing the weight of our rifles. Every type of barrel fluting was tried, some more successful than others. I still have a Shilen/Time Precision barrel that was deeply fluted at the chamber end, and the fluting tapers to the muzzle. It was thought that this type of flute would open up the chamber end and allow a sort of a tapered bore. Did it work? I say yes! I still have the barrel and it shoots pretty good. I won a lot of matches with it. The compete rifle weights under 8 pounds.

My point is this: if we had not been "upset" and beaten at a match, I don't think we as a group would have been so motivated to overcome this new threat.

Then there is the story about the first time I saw that Calfee lump on the end of a sporter barrel. I just knew that could not be legal. But .........it is all history now.

[J. Pappas]

Going back to the BR 50 days I recall a match at Blackcreek, Va. In those days we shot 50 targets in 30 minutes and the rules gave points for being under weight for the weight class. (I must have been too busy trying to get my rifle to shoot than worrying about the weight, as long as it made the weight class).

That day I shot a 4000 in the 10.5 weight class, not a bad score considering the conditions. But some clown (just kidding) shot a 3900 with a Calfee XP 100 pistol and won the match. I wasn't happy to say the least. I had never even heard of a Calfee XP 100 pistol, didn't really know a lessor score could win the match. But his pistol was legal. Nothing in the rules, at the time, disallowed them.

Those pistols motivated me and many others to look at ways of reducing the weight of our rifles. Every type of barrel fluting was tried, some more successful than others. I still have a Shilen/Time Precision barrel that was deeply fluted at the chamber end, and the fluting tapers to the muzzle. It was thought that this type of flute would open up the chamber end and allow a sort of a tapered bore. Did it work? I say yes! I still have the barrel and it shoots pretty good. I won a lot of matches with it. The compete rifle weights under 8 pounds.

My point is this: if we had not been "upset" and beaten at a match, I don't think we as a group would have been so motivated to overcome this new threat.

Then there is the story about the first time I saw that Calfee lump on the end of a sporter barrel. I just knew that could not be legal. But .........it is all history now.

There were no weight classes in BR 50. If your gun weighed over 12 lbs it cost you points and under 12 lbs you got points. There was no 10 1/2 class.

[Tony K Harper]

There were no weight classes in BR 50. If your gun weighed over 12 lbs it cost you points and under 12 lbs you got points. There was no 10 1/2 class.

You are right. It was 12 pounds. My memory, as well as other parts, fails me.

Tony

[Vibe]

My use of the words "drama" "accomplice" or "Poor slob match director" were not meant to be snide, but meant to describe what I see as going on here.

I used drama because I see that Calfee's way of doing things induces drama. His way of trying to determine whether this barrel is legal is to enter it, possibly have another shooter or the match director challenge it, and either allow or disqualify the scores. Am I the only one that sees this situation to have the potential for lots of drama at that match?

I used the word "accomplice" because Calfee implied that another shooter (and not himself) would be the one using this barrel. So to carry out his challenge/test of the rule he is involving another person that has agreed to do so - an accomplice.

I used the term "poor slob match director" not out of any disrespect, I feel for the poor guy. I think that it is Calfee that is showing the disrepect by blind siding some poor unsuspecting MD to have to make this call on his new equipment that he himself doubts its legality. Calfee could at the very least give the MD a heads up that this mess is coming his way by annoucing the match ahead of time. That would be respectful.

In my opinion since he knows right upfront that his new barrel may be illegal (and I have never commented on its legality) I think the right way to go about it is to submit it to the owner of IR50/50 and have Bill Hinegardner make a determination on its legality before it is used in a match. Sure the rules allow that it be used and that some unsuspecting MD can be thrown in the middle of this issue. But why go through all that (and I'll correctly use the word again) drama? The rules for IR50/50 state, " The legality of any method, device, or equipment not addressed in these rules will be determined by USRA-IR50/50." Let the legality of this new device be determined by IR50/50's owner before using it in a match. I think that is the best way to go about this.

Not to get too far afield here, but you have to stop and think. The method Bill is suggesting is the very same one that MUST be used to challenge ANY law here in the USA. In order to change a law, some "poor sap" has to violate it first - otherwise he does not have "legal standing" to object to the law, or rule in this case.

[buzzard]

this site is for the progression of rimfire accuracy not tryin to figure out riddles and that is my opinion

[wsmall]

What's the riddle?

[Vibe]

this site is for the progression of rimfire accuracy not tryin to figure out riddles and that is my opinion

You might not be in the right sport then. Rimfire accuracy IS a riddle.