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  1. #1
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    Default Barrel materials

    BILL,
    Other threads have discussed reduced barrel life with MI rifleing.I'm curious as to why all of the rimfire gunsmiths are using 416 stainless barrels when the barrel makers offer chrome moly barrels at a lesser price.Obviously a chrome moly barrel would last at least twice and probably three times as long as a 416 stainless barrel.
    Ernie

  2. #2
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    Dan Lilja on his web site says:

    The primary difference between the two types, as far as rifle barrels are concerned, is that chrome-moly can be blued and stainless steel cannot be using conventional methods. Rifle barrels made from stainless steel will last longer, as related to throat erosion, than chrome-moly. Stainless steel resists heat erosion better. Also we can get a slightly better internal finish when lapping with stainless steel.
    I would think Dan knows where of he speaks.

  3. #3
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    Ernie, for what it's worth it seems about 1/2 are using 416 and 1/2 416R.

  4. #4
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    Default Barrel Life

    I read somewhere a while back that Eley replaces their chrome moly test barrels after a minimum
    of 150,000 rounds. Lately I'm hearing these MI stainless barrels are losing accuracy after 5000 rounds. I'm a curious guy and it sure makes me wonder.Perhaps our British friends can shed some light on Eley's barrel life and accuracy.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by ErnieJ View Post
    I read somewhere a while back that Eley replaces their chrome moly test barrels after a minimum
    of 150,000 rounds. Lately I'm hearing these MI stainless barrels are losing accuracy after 5000 rounds. I'm a curious guy and it sure makes me wonder.Perhaps our British friends can shed some light on Eley's barrel life and accuracy.
    Ernie,

    I’ve never asked Eley about their barrels, except I know they use four, all Anschutz (1913’s I believe).

    You have to remember Eley don’t use the barrels to test for accuracy, they are used to determine the fps of the batches.

    I can tell you they use Parker Hale 009 to clean the bores and use the VFG felt pads.

    Brian

  6. #6
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    Bill, I will get back to you with more info, but at the moment I’m in the middle of doing my tax returns, if they are not in by Tuesday I get fined. I guess it’s the same in the US – don’t you just love them.

    Brian

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by MKnarr View Post
    Dan Lilja on his web site says:



    I would think Dan knows where of he speaks.
    Just thinking
    The 416 or 416r stainless steel maybe more erosion resistant than chrome moly.
    But how much erosion can two grains of powder in a low velocity rimfire create .
    We know a hot centre fire can eat a barrel in know time at all .
    The 416 stainless steel barrels are much easier to machine and lap than the chrome moly .
    Does this indicate it is a softer material
    If it does then it is more prone to scratching
    Some of the old chrome moly barrels have been around for many years and show no sighns of loosing there accuracty .
    Now i believe some of the ammo is using ground glass in the priming compound ,
    just thinking wich barrel will last the longest the SS or the CM
    THANKS EVERYONE

  8. #8
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    Default Barrel material

    I bore scoped my five barrels today. Three of them are broughton 5c's with 416 stainless barrels. All three were built sometime in 2009 and have no more than five bricks each of Eley thru them.All three show significant erosion at six o'clock the entire length of the bore. The next gun was barreled by Bill Calfee for Shannon Hollen who shot it at the 2008 ARA Nationals. I bought it in December of 2008 and shot it most of 2009. The gun has a six groove 416 stainless barrel. I do not know who manufactured the barrel.I would estimate the gun has about 15 bricks thru it since being rebarreled but I understand it was a used barrel when installed.Perhaps Bill can shed some light on its history. This gun also has erosion the entire length of the barrel approxamately the same as the Broughton barrels.
    However this barrel has at least three times as many rounds thru it and possibly many more.This certainly indicates not all stainless barrels wear the same.My last barrel was a Anschutz 1907 I purchased new and shot the entire 2008 season.This chrome moly barrel also has about fifteen bricks thru it.
    The barrel also has 6 o'clock erosion.However contrary to the stainless barrels the erosion diminishes
    the farther away you get from the chamber and totally disappears half way down the barrel.
    Conclusion: The chrome moly barrel is more resistant to the erosion(gravel road)that we're seeing.My best guess would be about a five to one ratio.

  9. #9
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    Default Barrel wear

    Quote Originally Posted by ErnieJ View Post
    I bore scoped my five barrels today. Three of them are broughton 5c's with 416 stainless barrels. All three were built sometime in 2009 and have no more than five bricks each of Eley thru them.All three show significant erosion at six o'clock the entire length of the bore. The next gun was barreled by Bill Calfee for Shannon Hollen who shot it at the 2008 ARA Nationals. I bought it in December of 2008 and shot it most of 2009. The gun has a six groove 416 stainless barrel. I do not know who manufactured the barrel.I would estimate the gun has about 15 bricks thru it since being rebarreled but I understand it was a used barrel when installed.Perhaps Bill can shed some light on its history. This gun also has erosion the entire length of the barrel approxamately the same as the Broughton barrels.
    However this barrel has at least three times as many rounds thru it and possibly many more.This certainly indicates not all stainless barrels wear the same.My last barrel was a Anschutz 1907 I purchased new and shot the entire 2008 season.This chrome moly barrel also has about fifteen bricks thru it.
    The barrel also has 6 o'clock erosion.However contrary to the stainless barrels the erosion diminishes
    the farther away you get from the chamber and totally disappears half way down the barrel.
    Conclusion: The chrome moly barrel is more resistant to the erosion(gravel road)that we're seeing.My best guess would be about a five to one ratio.
    Ernie,

    Thanks for posting this info. It would be interesting to see if others are seeing the same thing. CM barrels not eroding at the same rate as SS barrels.

    Tony

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by ErnieJ View Post
    I bore scoped my five barrels today. Three of them are broughton 5c's with 416 stainless barrels.
    All three were built sometime in 2009 and have no more than five bricks each of Eley thru them.All three show significant erosion at six o'clock the entire length of the bore.
    The next gun was barreled by Bill Calfee for Shannon Hollen who shot it at the 2008 ARA Nationals. I bought it in December of 2008 and shot it most of 2009. The gun has a six groove 416 stainless barrel. I do not know who manufactured the barrel.I would estimate the gun has about 15 bricks thru it since being rebarreled but I understand it was a used barrel when installed.Perhaps Bill can shed some light on its history. This gun also has erosion the entire length of the barrel approxamately the same as the Broughton barrels.
    However this barrel has at least three times as many rounds thru it and possibly many more.This certainly indicates not all stainless barrels wear the same.My last barrel was a Anschutz 1907 I purchased new and shot the entire 2008 season.This chrome moly barrel also has about fifteen bricks thru it.
    The barrel also has 6 o'clock erosion.However contrary to the stainless barrels the erosion diminishes
    the farther away you get from the chamber and totally disappears half way down the barrel.
    Conclusion: The chrome moly barrel is more resistant to the erosion(gravel road)that we're seeing.My best guess would be about a five to one ratio.
    Does the erosion you are speaking of look like a multitude of tiny pin pricks in the effected zone?
    I have a take off Shilen SS 4 grove that has tiny pock marks -sorta looks like the area is paved with pin pricks. I never noticed this before until you guys started this thread.
    thanks Dizzy

  11. #11
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    Default Barrels

    OK where dose a man go to get a good CM barrel for BR shooting
    thanks

  12. #12
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    Well, if their CM barrels are as good as the present s/s I would have a look at Lilja. My next barrel is going to be a CM. I’m thinking a cut rifled from Border here in the UK.

    Brian

  13. #13
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    Default

    I know Lilja, I got one kinda by mistake and I have a Lilja CM on order right now for my squirrel rifle project (blued steel is prettier too). I'm a retired pipe fitter and probably welded everything from the crack of dawn to a broken heart, and I can tell you SS does some wierd things when heated up, way more unpredictable then carbon steel. Thanks, Douglas

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Douglas View Post
    I'm a retired pipe fitter and probably welded everything from the crack of dawn to a broken heart
    After a freezing cold Easter weekend and the first day back at work, that was funny.

  15. #15
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    Dizzy,
    Those pin pricks are exactly what we are talking about.Some call it wear,others pitting,
    I call it erosion.There are also several opinions as to the cause.The only thing we know for
    sure is that its gotten significantly worse in the last year.
    Last edited by ErnieJ; 04-06-2010 at 11:19 AM. Reason: Added info.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by ErnieJ View Post
    Dizzy,
    Those pin pricks are exactly what we are talking about.Some call it wear,others pitting,
    I call it erosion.There are also several opinions as to the cause.The only thing we know for
    sure is that its gotten significantly worse in the last year.
    I made this reply on another post -probably fits here better:
    I don't have a clue -just throwing something else in the pot.
    Maybe the corrosion comes from one particular cleaning fluid. Does everyone get corrosion?

    Could the 6 O'Clock corrosion be from cleaning fluid running down to the bottom of the bbl cleaning between targets? When ever you start shooting again some component of the cleaning fluid reacts with heat and corrodes the bbl??????????

    How does most people store their rifles? Is there a common rifle storage that would let the left over bore cleaner live at the 6' O'Clock position?
    After looking with a bore scope last nite for the "Rocky Road", i went round and round -cleaned my scope mirrors then finally i saw it, little tiny "pin pricks". I was looking for something way too big, lol. I think in the past i missed seeing this -wasn't looking close enough.

    IN my mind what i saw was very tiny "craters"... The bbl was off the gun and had been laying on my bench. - but the craters were in a narrow width and ran long ways with the bore, probably was the 6 O'Clock position when the bbl was mounted.

    Now this is just a guess but to me it looks like something is leaching into the pours of the metal and the heat from the blast is making the metal react with what ever bore cleaning chemical has leached into the SS bbl. Now in my mind the Stainless Steel is softer -maybe easier to absorb chemicals than Chrome Molly steel.

    What ever the reaction is coming from, by products from burning gunpowder or chemicals in the bore cleaning cpds i'm thinking heat will be the "reactor or the kicker off-er or cataylst". I'll go out on a limb here and guess Bill will not get any "pin pricks/rocky roads" with his experiment. It's a great experiment but it will probably need "heat" to kick it off, just a guess on my part.

    And one last thing, is it for certain those tiny pin pricks effect accuracy? I am getting "bogged down" on what the wax does. If wax coats the bbl all the way to the end surely it coats over the "pin pricks". Now if the fire burns the wax out of the pin pricks we don't have any wax in the bore for the next round -so there is never any wax in the bbl for the next round?????? Does each new round supply it own wax for its trip down the bore and is non dependant what happened on the before shot????? just call me dizzy for short, lol
    Last edited by Dizzy Dean; 04-06-2010 at 12:37 PM.

  17. #17
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    With a bit of Googling i came up with an interesting article.. i think maybe this would speak more towards the corrosion from the after gasses of burning gunpowder as the culprit for corrosion... barrel cleaning fluids are not out of the mix just yet for me........
    416 SS is the least corrision resistant of all the stainless materials- it does not contain any nickle like other SS. The article below talks about how oxygen combines with stainless steel surface and forms a "passive layer". I doubt there would be any oxygen in a just fired bbl to form any kind of a "passive layer". I'm no expert or even close but i do like to "figure" -just what the heck is going on here anywho!

    This excerpt is quoted from an article found here:
    http://accurateshooter.wordpress.com...-rust-you-bet/

    Forum member Jacob, who is studying materials science at LSU, provides this technical information: “The basic resistance of stainless steel occurs because of its ability to form a protective coating on the metal surface. This coating is a ‘passive’ film which resists further ‘oxidation’ or rusting. The formation of this film is instantaneous in an oxidizing atmosphere such as air, water, or other fluids that contain oxygen. Once the layer has formed, we say that the metal has become ‘passivated’ and the oxidation or ‘rusting’ rate will slow down to less than 0.002″ per year (0.05 mm per year).

    Unlike aluminum or silver, this passive film is invisible in stainless steel. It’s created when oxygen combines with the chrome in the stainless to form chrome oxide which is more commonly called ‘ceramic’. This protective oxide or ceramic coating is common to most corrosion resistant materials.

    Halogen salts, especially chlorides, easily penetrate this passive film and will allow corrosive attack to occur. The halogens are easy to recognize because they end in the letters ‘ine’. Listed in order of their activity they are: fluorine, chlorine, bromine, iodine, astatine.

    These are the same chemicals that will penetrate Teflon and cause trouble with Teflon coated or encapsulated o-rings and/ or similar coated materials. Chlorides are one of the most common elements in nature and if that isn’t bad enough, they’re also soluble, active ions. These provide the basis for electrolytes. The presence of electrolytic solutions can accelerate corrosion or chemical attack.”

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian_K View Post
    Well, if their CM barrels are as good as the present s/s I would have a look at Lilja. My next barrel is going to be a CM. I’m thinking a cut rifled from Border here in the UK.

    Brian
    Hya Mate,
    You may want to talk to Ken S about Boarder he is still waiting 3 month later for two of his guns to come back.

    AndyD

  19. #19
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    Hi Andy,

    I ordered a CM barrel blank yesterday and was told a maximum of four weeks for delivery. Apparently they are moving premises at the moment so that may be causing a delay. It’s not too far for me to go and knock on the door if they are late.

    Brian

  20. #20
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    Default Barrel delivery

    Brian,

    Over here it normally takes 8-12 weeks to get a barrel. If yours comes in 4 you are doing great!

    Tony

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