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Thread: If you test a lot indoors

  1. Default If you test a lot indoors

    Shooting outdoors the first thing i do is sight the rifle in to where i think the neutral wind condition is.
    This position always seems to change from session to session. Not much, but noticeable.
    Do shooters who test a lot indoors notice this or is it usually dead on from last session after a few rounds?
    I'm suspecting rifle balance, 2 piece rest setup, slightly different wind or climate condition may be a problem.
    Without access to regular indoor testing its difficult to pin down the small differences that matter to better accuracy.
    Peter

  2. #2
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    Default Very Similar!

    What ever the weather is outside ,plays a very significant role inside , Wind outside yields static pressure inside , Cold & Hot has the morning and night effects as it does outside ,not much as a difference as you would expect ! Exhaust Fans can play a role also! It looks a lot easier inside than it really is ,cause as the day progresses it is changing just like outside!

  3. Default how about test tunnel

    Would the uniformity of a test tunnel eliminate it?
    Suppose what i'm trying to find out is am i trying to find a ghost.
    Is this phenomenon associated with the 22 LR or do i have a problem with my setup.
    After a recent change from a sporter bench stock, added new tuner & short slide things are looking up.
    Will see if this changes anything in the next couple of weeks.
    Peter

  4. #4
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    Feb 2010
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    Default

    They put turrets on a scope for a reason. POI changes. You use the turrets to move POI to where you want it at that point in time. It will most likely be different in an hour or two so you need to do it again. A never ending pursuit. bob

  5. Default Needed to know

    Thanks. That's what i needed to know.
    After the stock change groups are marginally better, but when moving from 1 side of the card to the other they are far more centralized.
    Better x counts.
    Now i can move on testing other things without the nagging feeling of "is that alright" at the start of a session.
    Peter

  6. #6
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    Default

    22tech
    The conditions indoor depend on the tunnel. I have been able to test in Killoughs Eley tunnel and in a friends tunnel here in Nebraska. The test in Killoughs was early in the morning with cool cloudy skies and I did not see any mirage at all. The last time here in Nebraska the day started off cold then warmed up due to a nice sunny day. The metal building is uninsulated and we did start to see some light mirage. The bull sheet from the other shooters may have contributed to the changing conditions.

    I am a believer in being able to test ammo in a tunnel with controlled conditions. I think it really helps to pin point performance issues with the rifle and really help to find good ammo. Knowing that a combination of rifle and ammo performs well helps a lot going the range to compete during a match.

    I have secured permission from She who must be obeyed to go shoot in the tunnel again this Sunday, looking forward to a fun day.


    DLWilson

  7. Default best design for a test tunnel

    I see pictures of test tunnels with smallish diameters just in front of the rifle. Does this continue all the way to target or does it open up.
    Working with clear timber extraction hoses its amazing the flow patterns. I know this doesn't correlate much because of the velocity of the extraction air. The tunnels have a very slight draw of air through them right? Would a squarer shape be better or a larger space like a well sealed warehouse.
    The differences would probably too marginal to notice. Trying to get access to a 50m industrial building to understand better whats going on.
    Has anyone tunnel tested for a good lot only to find it not perform elsewhere then back in the tunnel to find it is still good?
    Peter

  8. #8
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    Feb 2010
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    Southwest Nebraska
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    Default

    22tech
    The two tunnels I have been able to shoot in have consistent tunnel sizes.
    The Eley tunnel at Killoughs is round and is about 3'6" or 4' in Dia and consistent for the full length. The bench area is climate controlled and there is some air flow down range. It is very slight but the muzzle gasses never came back into the bench area. I don't know about the construction around the tunnel to be able to to say if there is any insulation to help control temps in the tunnel.

    My friends tunnel, here in Nebraska is a basic prefabricated metal building, no insulation and no mechanical ventilation. The volume of the space at the bench are is quite large. The tunnel is about. 6' tall and 5' wide for the entire length. Back in February we noticed some mirage mid day as the temps warmed up, but it didn't seem too bad.

    I will be shooting in the Nebraska tunnel again this Sunday and the day is supposed to start off cool and warm up quite a bit. It will be interesting to see the effect of the increasing temps in the tunnel to see if it affects our target scores. Landy has a good system for scoring the shots and presenting the performance of the ammo tested during a shoot.

    I really appreciate have a place close to home to be able to get in out of our wind to test ammo. I said before I think this is really important. For testing ammo in Landy's tunnel we shoot 25 bulls as on a target. We shoot sighters and adjust the scope where we want to hold, then we shoot that same spot every bull. The target is scanned and the computer program groups the 25 shots. From that we can see the comparative performance of different lots.

    The rest of the time we just shoot the bull and harass the shooter at the bench


    DLWilson

  9. #9
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    Feb 2010
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    Default

    Well, As I was Informed today, the Nebraska tunnel is actually about 6' wide and 8' tall. Apparently the only thing I got correct is that it is uniform in size for it's entire length, plus the fact that it is uninsulated and the spiders are not big enough to eat the wasps. Despite all of that we had a hoot today.

    Shot the heck out of some ARA rifles testing ammo then switched to a CZ and a Pre A 52 an proceeded to shoot a whole bunch of holes in paper. Too bad they weren't closer together, not sure we could call them groups. The first shot Landy fired out of the CZ vaporized before it got there...at least that is the theory. I was watching thru the spotting scope and had to ask if he was shooting at the target or the cardboard backer to warm up the barrel because there was no hole in the target.. Hence the theory of vaporization.

    Landy thinks the Cz shot great so we agreed with him, so we could get back in the tunnel in the future.


    DLWilson

  10. Default Thought i was shooting in a tunnel yesterday

    Thought i was shooting in a tunnel at yesterdays match. The little SBR has really come alive with the addition of harrell & slide. Last 4 targets = 3 best ever. Shot a 249.12 on hunter benchrest target at 51meters. One shot 1mm off a 250. Admittedly only about a 1925 ARA but exciting for me.
    Big thanks to Killoughs & Pappas, fantastic. Looks like the old "sprinkler/part of air hammer" tuner is destined for the bin.
    20160425_123101.jpg
    Haven't a chance to test proper settings yet. Just tried tuner only 50 clicks at a time. No joy. Set at 200 added slide, weight back. No joy. Added bloop. No joy. Removed bloop, slid weight full forwards. Bingo in the ballpark. From my reading might need less weight for tuner only.(20 inch barrel)
    Can't match PRX without extra weight or link. Read somewhere shorter barrels are harder to utilize PRX? Will try all theories then pick what works theory or no theory.
    Any previous experience with the Annie SBR and these additions would be much appreciated. I know its not a custom gun but its all i have for now.
    Peter
    Last edited by 22tech; 04-29-2016 at 07:19 AM. Reason: make photo work properly

  11. Default

    rimfire[/QUOTE]
    I really appreciate have a place close to home to be able to get in out of our wind to test ammo. I said before I think this is really important. For testing ammo in Landy's tunnel we shoot 25 bulls as on a target. We shoot sighters and adjust the scope where we want to hold, then we shoot that same spot every bull. The target is scanned and the computer program groups the 25 shots. From that we can see the comparative performance of different lots.[/QUOTE]


    Shooting the same spot on each bull is just for testing right? When things get serious between you guys shooting for score (sheep stations) you obviously adjust during the card if it helps? You must have confidence in the equipment & its ability to not edge away from this spot over the 30 or so shots. What time interval between shots is used (depends on each rifle?)I understand if you don't want to disclose too many of Landys secrets.
    My understanding of test tunnels is they shoot return to battery at same bull & plotted electronically.
    Peter

  12. Default

    Peter,

    When we test in Landy's tunnel after we have shot some sighters and adjusted our scopes if needed, we aim at the center dot on every bull. When we are not testing we do what ever it takes to try and win. Take a look at the thread Landy started about our match on Valentines Day those are his test targets, the first two I shot like we test, holding the dot every time and got lucky. When I started the third, things started to change and I did not figure it out until the forth Target and was able to hold off and shoot a pretty good target.
    The only secret Landy has is the little shrine tucked away in a corner that has fingerless gloves, tuning fork. brass hammer and a little set of finger paints.

    Jim S.

  13. #13
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    Feb 2010
    Location
    Southwest Nebraska
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    156

    Default

    Peter
    The Eley test Tunnel at Killoughs is a return to battery rest bolted to the floor. The action is removed from the stock and bolted into the return platform. Each shot is electronically scored plotted and results are printed out at the end of the session

    In Landy's tunnel we set up our one piece rest and set up the rifle just as we would at a match. We get the rifle zeroed on the target and 25 bulls are shot, holding the same point of aim on each bull. Landy records the velocity of each shot, the targets are scanned and his program plots the results.

    I think the data produced from each tunnel is similar.

    In February the Valentines Day Great Nebraska National Indoor Championship it was a no hold barred shoot off. I think the only rule was we couldn't touch the shooter. The Bull Sheet was running deep by the end of that match, if you didn't have a thick skin entering the tunnel you sure did coming out. It was and Is always fun at Landy's

    (Please let me back in)


    DLWilson

  14. Default

    Jim
    I reread the Valentines Day thread. Those are some stout targets. I'm envious.
    Peter

  15. Default

    Thank's Peter

    Everything I know I learned from Landy. An extra Landy secret is to wear your electronic earmuffs turned up
    high when ringing your barrels so you can find that magic tone a little easier

    Jim S.
    .

  16. #16

    Default Just sayin

    Quote Originally Posted by rimfire View Post
    Well, As I was Informed today, the Nebraska tunnel is actually about 6' wide and 8' tall. Apparently the only thing I got correct is that it is uniform in size for it's entire length, plus the fact that it is uninsulated and the spiders are not big enough to eat the wasps. Despite all of that we had a hoot today.

    Shot the heck out of some ARA rifles testing ammo then switched to a CZ and a Pre A 52 an proceeded to shoot a whole bunch of holes in paper. Too bad they weren't closer together, not sure we could call them groups. The first shot Landy fired out of the CZ vaporized before it got there...at least that is the theory. I was watching thru the spotting scope and had to ask if he was shooting at the target or the cardboard backer to warm up the barrel because there was no hole in the target.. Hence the theory of vaporization.

    Landy thinks the Cz shot great so we agreed with him, so we could get back in the tunnel in the future.
    Actually the bullets can some times de-vaporise and appear on the next target though it is rare it has been known to happen in competition
    Always associated with one of the shooters either side of you with a very red face
    In a sporter match once I had this happen as I was shooting on the every mans target but had my spotting scope setup on my scoring target at 100 yards
    The bullets were in fact vaporising in my mind but were in fact going exactly were the rifle was shooting confused the hell out of me.

  17. #17
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Nebraska
    Posts
    427

    Default Quantum Physics

    Hi Ben,

    The vaporization theory was a ruse to throw off the competition. I've even kept Jim and David in the dark due to my fears of losing a priceless intellectual product. I just can't be too careful or I run the risk of everyone stealing my secrets.

    BecauseI retired this year and no longer have a source of regular income, I've decided to sell a few revolutionary concepts that will allow me to live more comfortably as I transition into the Old Folk's Home.

    For the low introductory price of $5,000 the first secret is how to achieve quantum teleportation through the use of entanglement theory to "vaporize" the bullet shortly after it clears the crown and have it reappear on the X at the target.

    I've agonized for years over whether or not I should release this information because it would essentially drive out of business every single person involved in the RFBR market!

    Any barrel will work tomato stake or not, you'll never have to lot test ammo again, gunsmiths will disappear off the planet, tuners will be tossed into the trash, and most importantly you'll never have to experience your wind flags and probes lying to you cuz they'll never be used again.

    The only drawback I envision will be that everyone shoots a perfect score in every match, but that can be simply handled by drawing names out of a hat to see where you place.

    Stay tuned for farther news as I hope to have my marketing plan in place by the first of the year. I may even attend a few matches and demo my system, but I'm afraid with the mounting expenses I'll require a small appearance fee.

    Landy

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