What does it take to really get to the top??

S

stiller

Administrator (Grand Overlord) ;<)
Dec 27, 2010
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Wylie, TX (dallas)
www.viperactions.com
I have had more than a few guys ask me "What does it take to get to the top??". I'm not sure why they are asking me, but I decided to put up my opinion on what it takes and what I have done to TRY and get there. Someday maybe I can get a little better and pull of a big win on a consistent basis. If anyone wants to add to this, feel free. I put in the the technical section, because most of my answers have a technical basis.

Over the last year or two I have made a effort to try and get my shit together and do a little better. I have made changes to equipment, shooting styles, wind reading, practicing and just about everything. It has seemed to help overall. I'm gonna break it down into some multiple posts and topics. First I am gonna talk about the gun.

My FIRST advice to anyone starting out is "DON'T TRY AND REINVENT THE WORLD. DO WHAT EVERYONE ELSE IS DOING UNTIL YOU CAN SHOOT THAT GOOD AND THEN MAKE CHANGES". I have had a hard time with that one in the past and a few years ago I took that advice and started doing better. Use proven stocks, actions, triggers, tuners and methods to tune them, scopes, ammo, rests and barrels, including people to build the guns. DON'T start out with some stuff that is just in general different than the norm, unless that is your thing and you are willing to give up shooting better to do it. The absolute easiest way to get it done here is to find a PROVEN gun and set of equipment to get going. That can be tough, as the top shooters don't turn loose on it much. At this point lets say for sake of argument, you have most of the stuff that is in the norm and have a gun that is good, but not great.

Take that gun and make sure everything is as good as it can be minus the barrel. Make sure the stock is rigid and not jacked up somehow. Make sure the bedding is solid. Make sure that when you tighten and loosen the bedding screws that the barrel doesn't move compared to the end of the stock more than about 3 or 4 thousands. Make sure the screws tighten up quick, not soft. What I mean by that is over about an 1/8th of a turn it goes from finger tight to tight. Make sure they don't hit the screw hole walls, bind on the trigger guard etc. Believe it or not, this is very important. I really like wood stocks better because they seem to be "deader". I have seen fiberglass work well and it is just my opinion. I really like our new stocks with the Dymalux material. I believe they have added 25 to 50 points a target to my scores, but I have no proof other than a feeling. I don't think the flyers go as far in it.

Make sure the firing pin hit is good and consistent. Make sure there is no drag on the cocking piece sides or internal to the bolt. I used to believe you needed a deep and solid hit to be good, but I have now moved back on that. I tend to just have enough hit to make it fire consistently. I cut back the spring or move the trigger forward until I get occasional misfires and then go back a little. That seems to be the ticket for flyers and smaller groups. Less vibration is my theory on that. Along with that goes the trigger. Minimize the trigger drag. Modify the internal spring if necessary. Also, KEEP THE DAMN GREASE OUT OF THE BOLT INTERNALS. This will create terrible drag and kill consistency. This whole topic can get much more involved, but is a small piece of the puzzle.

Make sure the scope base fits right, sand the bottom to match if needed. I have a mandrel built that with a piece of 240 grit paper on it measures 1.340 diameter. I sand all of my rails I install with it to make sure the side edges slightly load first. Keep all the screws tight and use the pins. Good rings are a must also. Anything in a bind in the scope mounting is definitely not good.

I will try to address the other stuff as I have time. The next installment will be finding ammo if you have a good gun or a few good guns. Feel free to add.
 
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Fantastic topic.

I will add the thing I struggle the most is adapting to wind conditions. We used to know, from that direction do this, from the other do that...
But that's not always (never?) the case, and having a quick capacity to adapt means staying or not in the game.

Regarding barrels, and to put in perspective the even harder condition over here... a new barrel is like a new gun in terms of police permits... so 30 barrels is like having 30 guns, which is not allowed... now you know, how hard is around here...
 
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Barrels

IF you have all the above, mostly you have a barrel left to worry about. That is the real kicker and the make/break it part. Believe it or not, I have probably chambered and installed over 30 barrels in the last year. I have at least quick tested and tuned all of them on my gun. I have used Muller and Shilen mostly. There are lots of good ones, a few shitters AND a few great ones. I think the great ones are 1 in 10 at best and maybe 1 in 30 at worst. I chamber each type of barrel the same for its type, put it on my gun and have a basic test routine I use. I have a very involved chambering process that I will not go into now, but a SMOOOOTTTHHH transition in the lead is absolutely necessary for a barrel to shoot without cases of ammo through it. I put a standard Harrells bored to its natural stop on it. I set it on 200 and shoot a box through it of some test ammo and then clean it. I then start shooting some good ammo in it. I look at how it does with 3 to 5 shot groups and go to 175, 150, 225 and see how it acts. I put a bloop on it at the Purdy length and move it back and forth 5 clicks at a time for about a turn and see how it does. I record everything. I try to hone in on a good spot and lets just say it works at 203. I come in the next morning and check it again. If it holds then try it later. I really like them to shoot most of my good lots good and a few better than good. BTW, most barrels don't quite make it. I really like to see about 90% of the shots from all the lots stay in the 100 ring. That is my QUICK tune. Some barrels that don't work here go on to work later, but is is quickly loosing my interest. Bad Bob's barrel I shot most of the year does all of this pretty well, although it seems to be a little intolerant of ammo lots.

I know, that's a shit load of work, money, time and frustration at best to do this. 30 barrels to the normal person would be about $20k worth of barrels. Add about 3 cases of test ammo and you seem to have a sizable investment. SOME guys get lucky. They hit it after the first barrel or early in the process. Some just work them until they find a tuner spot. THAT IS POSSIBLE. It just takes more time and ammo.

In the end you can lot test ammo, barrels or guns to try and find what's best, probably all three. My take on the whole thing is once you have a proven setup, "DON'T SELL THE STUFF". That way when you need a new barrel you at least know the rest of the stuff is good.
 
Ammo testing

I know, "we all hate it, it costs too much, it takes too much time and I just don't have the facility to really do it". Well, that's the story that applies to all of us. The difference between being at the top and not for damn sure requires good ammo (no matter how good your gun is). I only test Eley at the moment. Lapua has a different method of dolling it out and I don't really know it. This process mostly applies to Eley.

First you have to know when ammo is going to be available. That's the easy part. WATCH this forum every single day, maybe multiple times, and watch for the posting from Paul as to when it is going to be in. Eley ships to 2 different locations, Zanders and KSS. Both will show up in this forum when Paul puts it up. PAUL is the person to hook you up with ammo. When you see that something is coming you have a few choices.

1. Call and have them send you a box or two of every lot that comes in. That is the sure fire way you won't miss any.
2. Try to cull using the analyzer, machine # or a sampling of some lots
3. Wait for your friend to test and then tell you what was purchased (and it will all be gone if any good)
4. Go to KSS and have them tunnel test for you. That will definitely get you top notch ammo tested in your gun. They will not test some Tenex or any Match however. You may miss some good stuff that way. In the end it may be cheaper.

I have been tending to do #1 lately, with maybe a few machines left out that have not worked in the late past. THAT WAS A MISTAKE for some of the last batches though, as the best machine was one we didn't get. When you decide what to buy here is what I do. BTW, if you can put a few guys together to test, that is more data and better data. Just buy enough for the number of guns used. Bob and I have been doing it lately. It helps to do it this way. Shooting indoors is a great help, but a calm outdoors can sometimes be better. DON'T let not having an indoor test place stop you for sure.

1. Call immediately and get test lots shipped.
2. That very same day it arrives shoot it. I test across as many guns as possible that are GOOD guns or guns I am wanting to find ammo for that are already tuned. An untuned gun test is worthless in my opinion. I really like to find ammo that shoots good in at least a few of my good guns, or Bobs or ???. I try to test in same make barrels with similar chambers. I shoot a 5 shot group with each in each gun, and maybe do a second run for another 5 shot group.
3. Pick the best lots from the above and try them some more. If they hold up now you have to make a choice. If you bought enough to shoot a card, do that and see how it does. IF not, shoot as much as you can to verify.
4. Decide on how much you are willing to risk buying based on this test. I usually call that day or the next morning to buy. IF it was great ammo, it will be gone soon, so act now.
5. IF you are lucky enough to have someone you trust doing the same thing, contact them and see what they have found out. More positive results lowers risk of the ammo being not the best.
6. CALL AND BUY AS MUCH AS YOU FEEL GOOD ABOUT. If I have a few lots that work good, I split up the buy and get a few lots. Some days and times one is better than the other.

This all works good if the ammo goes to Zanders or KSS and there is not a big shoot soon. Dan tends to take ammo to Slicks, the Triple Crown, the Nationals and the Swamp if the timing is right. Most of the best lots will be tested, found and bought right there. Moral of that story is go to those shoots to find ammo.

IN ADDITION, there are still good lots at Zanders and KSS that have not been tested. Especially machine numbers that have not been great lately. If you need ammo, talk to Paul, Frymier and others that shoot alot and see what they know. They can turn you on to some unfound gold at times.

Good luck and let me know what works the best as soon as you know. :cool:
 
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Smooth transition in the lead

Extremely good info! Thank you Jerry.

"I have a very involved chambering process that I will not go into now, but a SMOOOOTTTHHH transition in the lead is absolutely necessary for a barrel to shoot without cases of ammo through it."

I personally use two excellent chamber reamers (1.5 & 2.0 degrees) with live pilots, which cut a beautiful smooth chamber and lead. However, even so, the transition into the lead, when pushing a slug through from the chamber is NEVER SMOOOOTTTTHHH. Even with some internal polishing with lapping compound on a tight patch, I never seems to get the smooth transition you are emphasizing above. May I ask, if your process for obtaining the smooth transition requires a post chamber lap with a lead casting of the bore?

Thanks for all that you do for our sport. Congratulations on your winning the "Eley Main Event" and the big prize money. John Austen
 
center22 said:
Extremely good info! Thank you Jerry.

"I have a very involved chambering process that I will not go into now, but a SMOOOOTTTHHH transition in the lead is absolutely necessary for a barrel to shoot without cases of ammo through it."

I personally use two excellent chamber reamers (1.5 & 2.0 degrees) with live pilots, which cut a beautiful smooth chamber and lead. However, even so, the transition into the lead, when pushing a slug through from the chamber is NEVER SMOOOOTTTTHHH. Even with some internal polishing with lapping compound on a tight patch, I never seems to get the smooth transition you are emphasizing above. May I ask, if your process for obtaining the smooth transition requires a post chamber lap with a lead casting of the bore?

Thanks for all that you do for our sport. Congratulations on your winning the "Eley Main Event" and the big prize money. John Austen
Click to expand...

I don't use a lead lap to smooth the lead. I have found a better way that does the freebore, lead in rifling and lightly smooths the side edges, without washing out. I don't usually divulge that process. One thing I will tell you is that the surface starts out real smooth to start with. Using a MA Ford jig bore type of boring bar or a very finely honed reamer is necessary when cutting the chamber. I CNC bore using about 4 free passes on the whole profile at different feedrates to remove the thread like surface. I have a few Henrikson reamers I use when I don't just bore it. I think they are honed with like a 2000 grit stone.
 
Jerry,

Thanks, always interesting and informative.
Do you bore based primarily on barrel configuration or other considerations? I have had a couple bored chambers, seems one concern is with some configurations, say 2 groovers some feel it avoids deflection of a reamer.
Also, might I ask, what do you personally look for in a barrel and how frequently is one that looks/measures/slugs great going in result in a great result, assuming nice chamber job ?
 
What?s the Cut-off for Great Ammo

Mr. Stiller,

Thank you for taking the time to speak from your vast experience.


When shooting five-shot groups for Lot selection, what group size (CTC or MR) are you looking for, before doing additional testing on that lot?

When using an ARA Target for Lot selection, what is your criteria?

- Looking only at Score?
-What Score is acceptable?

- Using OnTarget to measure MR or Max CTC?
- What MR or CTC is considered good?

- Looking at vertical?
- How much vertical is acceptable?

Thank You in Advance

 
Not Jerry but we have stayed in the same hotel. Great ammo, great barrel, great conditions nice round group that a live round dropped in hangs up on the rim. If you shoot the next round and consistently say "where did that one go?" because the hole didn't get bigger.
 
Looks like I have a ways to go!

VLNBYR said:
nice round group that a live round dropped in hangs up on the rim.
Click to expand...

Am I doing the math correctly?

I just measured the base of an Eley Case....7mm.


A five-Shot group, measuring 7mm is .2755 inches, Outside to Outside.


I have read that most .22 rounds are punching a hole that measures .204?


.2755 Rim Diameter minus .204 Bullet Hole Diameter = .0715?


Looks like I have a ways to go!
 
tim simbari said:
Jerry,

Thanks, always interesting and informative.
Do you bore based primarily on barrel configuration or other considerations? I have had a couple bored chambers, seems one concern is with some configurations, say 2 groovers some feel it avoids deflection of a reamer.
Also, might I ask, what do you personally look for in a barrel and how frequently is one that looks/measures/slugs great going in result in a great result, assuming nice chamber job ?
Click to expand...

I won't even fool with one that doesn't slug good or looks real washed out personally. I look for a nice even taper when I slug the barrel. I slug back and forth and feel for loose spots or inconsistency. IF it isn't what I want I will lap it to fix it if I can. The downside is that it can get more washed out the more you lap it and also get bigger. I have one chamber design I use for the octagons and the Muller 8. I have one a little different for the ratchet and 4mi. Mostly just the stickout amount.
 
KyleAllen said:
Mr. Stiller,

Thank you for taking the time to speak from your vast experience.


When shooting five-shot groups for Lot selection, what group size (CTC or MR) are you looking for, before doing additional testing on that lot?

When using an ARA Target for Lot selection, what is your criteria?

- Looking only at Score?
-What Score is acceptable?

- Using OnTarget to measure MR or Max CTC?
- What MR or CTC is considered good?

- Looking at vertical?
- How much vertical is acceptable?

Thank You in Advance
Click to expand...

I look at the groups and like to see the outside to outside be about a half inch or less for 5 to 10 shots. The best ammo is probably 0.375 for 5 shots. I look for flyers. If I get 9 great ones and flyers that are hard 50's consistently in multiple guns indoors, I cull that lot from my test. I just look at the groups on a target mainly, but have used OnTarget to do it also. If I shoot a complete target, I use OnTarget and want to see best case scores to be 2350+ for my best guns. That is a little optimistic for most guns though. 2200 to 2250 on a lot of guns will be the best ammo you will get. I don't care if its vertical or horizontal or diagonal. Out is out to me.
 
VLNBYR said:
Not Jerry but we have stayed in the same hotel. Great ammo, great barrel, great conditions nice round group that a live round dropped in hangs up on the rim. If you shoot the next round and consistently say "where did that one go?" because the hole didn't get bigger.
Click to expand...

That right there would damn sure be a keeper if you are shooting 5 or 10 shot groups. I don't think I have very many of them. BTW, that hotel was NOT the Bristol Econolodge! :cool:
 
Ha!!! No way for 10 but the really good rifles with killer ammo in good conditions will do that for 5 shots often enough that you shouldn't be surprised.
 
stiller said:
I don't use a lead lap to smooth the lead. I have found a better way that does the freebore, lead in rifling and lightly smooths the side edges, without washing out. I don't usually divulge that process. One thing I will tell you is that the surface starts out real smooth to start with. Using a MA Ford jig bore type of boring bar or a very finely honed reamer is necessary when cutting the chamber. I CNC bore using about 4 free passes on the whole profile at different feedrates to remove the thread like surface. I have a few Henrikson reamers I use when I don't just bore it. I think they are honed with like a 2000 grit stone.
Click to expand...

Henrikson reamers are good, to have several is amazing. I don?t think my life expectancy affords me that opportunity. Hugh seemed to have had a delivery schedule that requires more patience than most have. I have one Henrikson a good reamer although it is tapered not the straight that the WLM recommends.
 
Hob or dental tool ?

Polishing leade , One WLM uses a Hob , Dental extreme hard rubber tools polish Dental implants , real teeth, fake teeth ! Jerry , I don`t think you own a hob , some of these dental tools could handle a similar task could they not! Roger Brock buillt a couple of rifles early for me and told me it would take a couple of Bricks to really get it to shoot ! Richard said once he could tell before the first box was finished ! I asked him How? Polishing the leade gave a distinct advantage to analizing what you might have and WLM and his Hob was way ahead of the other rimfire Smiths and Richard came to the Top with his boring bar and leade finishing ! Now every smith does this in some secret procedure ,secret compound,etc ! One of the big differences in Chambering a Rimfire vs Centerfire ! JMO
 
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SLICK WILLY said:
Polishing leade , One WLM uses a Hob , Dental extreme hard rubber tools polish Dental implants , real teeth, fake teeth ! Jerry ,i know you don`t own a hob , some of these dental tools could handle a similar task could they not!
Click to expand...

I't not real familiar with them, maybe. I believe a hob may not need to be spun in the chamber when used, just pressed in. IF spun, no lapping etc would used, just a burnishing type of operation. That seems like it would induce stress or hard spots. I don't think that is the correct tact to take personally. The key is to get out circumferential marks and lay down a longitudinal surface to match the barrel rifling surfaces in my opinion. I don't think you can spin anything and get there myself.
 
Rests

If your rules allow it, a one piece rest seems to be the easiest answer. It has less ways to be inconsistent and is always aligned front to back. There are the Pappas and clones to that with its control setup, the Gorham design which has the controls reversed compared it the Pappas and the Joystick. There are probably a dozen others, but I am not gonna worry about them.

I bought a Pappas about 7 years ago when I was using my centerfire setup. Immediately my scores went up probably 50 points per target. Having good windage/elevation control and alignment was well worth it. Mine had the Fulgham top adaptor. With that you can put any top you want on it. I tried all of them. I see all of them used successfully. MY PERSONAL preference is either the standard delrin or fuzz button type. A few years back at the barn I was in my usual struggling state and shooting more vertical than I could stand. Morehead took me aside and told me to get rid of the top I was using, put on the delrin top and tighten the shit out of it so it slides much harder. I was desperate, so I tried it. Vertical went away and the rest is history. I was so used to the centerfire guns sliding easy, that is what I thought I needed. Not so, at least for my setup.

I still struggled with sighters. Trying to get to them and get back took too much time. Hence, the joystick rest. After using it for about a year it was put into production. I really cannot shoot anything else anymore. I truly believe I get 50 points a target from it.

BTW. None of this is a sales pitch for anything. It is just the stuff I use and why. Buy whatever works for you. If you buy stuff we make, I just have to work more/harder and I really am trying to be more retired and work on my cars. :(

Here is a set of rules you need to do no matter what you use in no particular order:

1. Make sure there is not slop in the controls. IF there is, tap a setcrew and put a nylon ball in it to load the controls. If you don't you will get flyers.
2. Make sure the legs are tight.
3. Make sure the post is tight.
4. Have secure feet on the bench for the points.
5. Be comfortable in the way YOU fit around it and the gun.
6. Use whatever top you want, but keep it tighter if a friction type and use a bungee if you have a roller.
7. A little car wax goes a long ways on the stock surfaces.
8. Level the target and be consistent each target hanging. Level the rest to it such that windage motion matches. Important on the Joystick for sure.

If you are getting suspected issues in shooting, get someone with a known gun to shoot off of it. If it goes away, its not the rest. Vice versa.

IF anyone has something to add to this, by all means get after it.
 
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